PeteWenman
Moderator
Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 899
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #1 |
Gents hi
Given the excellent stuff discussed by Magoo and Puff I thought I'd create this thread in which to park that kind of info.
If there's enough interest I'll make this a sticky so it stays in view.
Coincidentally I also found this book in my local Waterstones today.
http://www.amazon.com/Air-Combat-Manoeuvres-Technique-Simulation/dp/1903223989/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245263770&sr=8-2
I guess it would be considered basic by Mike, but it certainly is a good point from which to start understanding the three dimensional issues of air combat. It's published by "Classic" the same people behind the Jagdwaffe and American Eagles series of books, so they have a good pedigree. Its illustration heavy in a picture paints a thousand words kind of way.
I'll strip out the key info Mike and Kev discussed and copy it here so others can stumble across it more easily.
__________________
 |
| | PeteWenman
Moderator
Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 899
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #2 |
Kevin asked
Quote: Ok I have a question now....I have been involved with online combat sims for 10 years now...hence the reason I could help out with BoB2 etc if you need it...now the question I want to ask is on the book called Fighter Combat: Tactics and Manouvering by Robert L Shaw.
Mike have you read this title { a lot of online combat sim pilots use this as the bible of combat tactics } so i was wondering if the Airforce utilise this piece of work or not and do you think it has any relevence to combat found during WWII , remembering that this was still the early days and out of plane manouvers were found by accident and not training 
Mike replied
Quote: Kevin,
I have read it, and I believe I did so well before I went to pilot training. At the time I found it a tad dry here and there, I think mainly because I didn't truly understand some of the concepts at the time.
In fact though, all of the info in there is pretty much what is taught to a modern US (or UK/NATO) fighter pilot about visual fighting (through countless briefings and debriefings over a fighter pilot's training "life"), though it really isn't written down in any one single volume for a layman to understand (which is what Shaw did, which makes it pretty notable). He was a Top Gun graduate, and I think an instructor as well, and having dealt myself with both USAF and USN training, his book reflects very much how Top Gun taught about visual fighting at the time (which was excellent).
The USAF actually had to catch up to the Navy's better way of training after Viet Nam (their kill ratio, especially in the "Linebacker" batttles of May 1972 was far better than the Air Force due to the recently instituted Top Gun ACM training), and did so by improving USAF Fighter Weapons School along with implementing Red Flag, which essentially gave a "newbie" 10 simulated combat missions to fly and try and survive in, and thus gain experience of what actual combat would be like.
To answer your question more specifically, neither service utilizes his book, but for visual fighting, what he wrote is essentially what is taught still today in any USN/USAF BFM (Basic Fighter Manuevers) 1 v 1 training sortie, or ACM (Air Combat Manuevering) 2 v 1 sortie as well. It very much has relevance to WW2 and or sim (BoB) flying. If you use the concepts about energy management in a 2 circle fight in a Spit, you'll "outrate" a 109 over time as the Spit's "sustained turning rate" is better over time. If you go "idle" when jumped by a 109 in close from behind and roll near inverted and reef hard into him, then do it again as he is about to pull lead again, you'll probably get him to overshoot (as long as the occasional rounds he spits at you don't blow your tail off).
If a WW2 pilot had that book, his chances of surviving would have gone up quite a bit. It's amazing to me now that a Spit or Hurri pilot was committed to battle in 1940 with sometimes less than 10 or 15 hours in type - with next to no actual tactical training! "Stick to me like glue" just ain't gonna hack it - he barely knew how to finish his cockpit checks much less pull correct lead for a deflection shot! The problem then as well is that you often weren't fighting just one or 2 other guys - there could be 50 (just like in BoB)!! So another 109 is queueing up right after you've defeated the leader's attack - and now you're low and out of energy! I've found so far that I had better luck in BoB1 - the flight model AI pilots seem to "adjust" better in BoB2, almost unbelievably so. The above mentioned modern "Three thousand foot guns defense (vertical jink series) SHOULD throw an attacker with more energy out in front if done correctly (always in BoB1). It's significantly harder to shake them off in BoB2. More challenging but maybe not as realistic (I don't think every 109 driver was a Galland - the German training wasn't that much better than the RAF's at the time). Great fun though, allows me to get a little bit of the excitement of spitting rounds at someone in close again...or, damnit, "Break left Red 1! Six 109s on your tail!!!" Didn't that nitwit with 9 Spit hours just say, "Six clear?"
__________________
|
| | PeteWenman
Moderator
Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 899
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #3 |
Mike posted this sketch
Kev asked
Quote: Love them both but just a small question..{ although I haven't done this in real life lol } From the look of the drawing, the F18 looks as if, at the high closure rate, he would overshoot the Mig and miss the guns shot at the target, would he not be rolling to port in an effort to bring guns to bear, or roll into an out of plane lag pursuit and follow the target down? I would love to know the real life maneuver as I have only ever done stuff like this in front of a PC { hehe probably a damn sight easier when your eyeballs aren't getting tugged out your head !! }
Mike replied
Quote: Kevin, it's a good question - but you're assuming a high closure rate - probably due to the hint of burner flame on the Hornet and nothing from the MiG. In fact that "flame" is gun smoke trailing back from the earlier version that showed rounds impacting the MiG and the Fulcrum on fire. Since I shifted it to a training scenario I Photoshopped out the flames - but forgot to take out the gun smoke trail behind the Hornet.
In fact there is next to no closure - which is hard to portray in a "snapshot in time" for a painting. Hard to tell as yet, but the ailerons are showing a left roll input on the Hornet to get more "in plane" (or align lift vectors more correctly - which provides for an easier gunshot of course) as you say and the Hornet is close to full stick back deflection trying to keep the pipper on the nose of the MiG (stabs don't show that yet, but on the final drawing they'll be fully "dug in"). The Hornet is probably indicating about 70 knots, the MiG somewhere around 120 as he starts to go downhill after reefing down off the top of an "obliquish egg fight" to try and stay away from the Hornet's nose (unsuccessfully - barely) as the F/A-18 pulls through the horizon to follow. The Hornet has "lagged thru the bottom", and "pulled lead thru the top" of the oblique egg to chip away at the angles, but sensed he could rip his nose on as he's pulling thru to shoot at the MiG (Hornet has great instantaneous nose authority - can fool a bad guy who thinks he's safe for the moment). With a radar lock, even slightly out of plane with a bank angle a bit behind the target's as indicated here, it's fairly easy to pull the target down the "gun director line" (a line in the HUD that goes from the gun cross (2 degree upcant gun bore line in the Hornet) down the plane of motion of the target to the pipper itself). With enuf stab authority, I would do this every time at the top of the egg to threaten the bandit and maybe get a few rounds off - the target is showing you all planform and is thus a big target for a fighter at this range - hard to miss (and we only needed about a seconds worth of simulated rounds to impact to call a valid kill - really cool, with a radar lock a little diamond pops up where the rounds would go - very accurate. At 75 20mm rounds a second it don't take much to take a fighter out). You don't care about bleeding off knots because you know you'll get 'em back easing back out to lag on the way back down (the bandit MUST go down - he's out of energy and therefore predictable for the next 10 seconds or so). So you could be literally hanging nearly on your back at close to 0 airspeed, pulling lead and barely closing at all. If you miss the shot, you just ease off as your nose pulls thru and slide out to lag a bit to get airspeed back - the bandit's doomed - he has no place to go. Far easier to " draw the spaghetti " and demo with my hands than write about it, but hopefully that makes sense. "There's no kill like a guns kill!"
and followed up with this
Quote: Here's a (crummy) picture of the spaghetti of the side view of the oblique eggfight and a rough HUD view at "trigger down" about 90 degrees of bank and 20 degrees nose low, 70 knots from about 500 feet. Yeah, them 109s are a bit faster than the tough 'ole Hurri - fight better in the vertical too!! Lost a little in the scan but most of it's there. standard debrief whiteboard marker fare in a 1v1 sortie. 
Kev' came back at Mike with this aggressive counter (gutsiest move I ever saw man)
Quote: This is great Mike { hehe although we have kinda hijacked your own thread lol } How would you get out of that move if you were the Mig pilot? For me, I would try and roll inverted at the lag pursuit stage and pull back on the stick , although risking a snap shot from the F18 to try and get my vector onto the bandit trying my best to extend underneath , either run or work back to a neutral energy state. Now this is the bit of the post where you tell me I have been shot down lol
but our own Topgun was way ahead
Quote: Kev, that would be the correct answer if the Hornet did have a high(er) closure rate - you'd have to risk having a few low PK rounds spat at you as you quickly unload and use full aileron and rudder to reverse your lift vector 180 degrees and pull back into him - in IDLE - as you're trying to exacerbate his closure problem and get him "out of sync" in close and neutralize him as a minimum. If you tried to extend here by keeping burner (power) in, you're solving two of his problems for him - closure is less of a problem AND, you may buy a min range heater up the butt (about 1500ft for fusing) or allow him to more casually align flightpaths for a more stable gunshot.  As the attacker I really don't care what the defender does with his lift vector initially - I can change mine at will in a quick roll as my nose falls thru the horizon (actually I'm "pulling" it as much as possible with the minimum stab authority left).
The problem HERE is that there is no closure and range is actually opening slightly as the Hornet is "hanging" above you with his nose slightly in lag (if you survived the raking gunshot from my picture at the top of the "egg"). So the defender's best initial move is to stay in the egg fight and pull his nose down with lift vector on the Hornet hanging high above his head but ease off as much as possible to get precious knots back. But only as much as the Hornet's nose allows (You always must fly in relation to what the bandit's doing). Against a guns only threat, it's relatively easy to judge that intially - keep him out of enough "lead" to shoot. You are however, in a heater WEZ (Weapons engagement zone), so the 29 would be flaring a little before the Hornet pulls his "heat or IR nose" onto him to "keep his missile on the rail" (IR seeker head flare rejection tends to be worse when the missile is on the rail or in launch phase - once it's in the air, modern IR missiles have pretty good flare rejection capability). A smart attacker coming downhill won't initially pull lead unless the 29 is dumb enuf to continue to "try and get knots back" by easing on the G. He'll pull on the pole just enuf to keep the Hornet's gun in slight lag. The Hornet COULD pull max AOA here to try to shoot the gun, but he'd be bleeding knots to do it as he comes downhill, and being in lead here going downhill means CLOSURE and buying more angles in close. If the MiG "gets skinny" by banking 90 degrees and pulling a bit to the side and defeats the shot, the Hornet is going to quickly be facing a downward vertical overshoot problem as he's already at MAX AOA and can't pull up very quick. At minimum he'll be neutralized alongside the MiG and shooting a little ahead of his 3/9 line before he can ease off a bit to get a few knots to try and get above the MiG's gun - not a good place to be. So the more conservative move is to lag off a tad and build airspeed - you're still keeping pressure on the MiG because you're at the front of the "Control Zone" - about 2,000 feet back and no more than 20 degrees angle off. You're trying to "lag him thru the bottom" to get to what's called by the Navy as Vertical Tactical Airspeed - optimal 350 with a tank, 300 clean - same in an Eagle (essentially minimum speed for a FULL AB loop). Remember, the Mig's got more back pressure to keep your nose off, so he might only get back to 275 max. He can go up, but not as quickly and he'll have less G available at the top of the "egg". You, on the other hand, can follow him up comfortably with a strong pull but have enuf stab authority (airpseed) at the top to use God's G to help you reef the nose down and, ideally, "beat his nose to the horizon" when you "pull lead at the top". You've solved an angles issue, killed closure, and WILL be in a guns WEZ as this time he can't do the same downhill defense - he'll have to do an idle vertical jink series and hope you're a lousy shot. OK, that's eggfights in a nutshell, as the attacker - lag thru the bottom, lead thru the top. The defender basically tries to survive long enuf for a buddy to come and paste the attacker, or sucker the attacker into a too aggressive move and capitalize to neutralize him. He can also do a "pirouette" after going up when the attacker starts to pull up to follow him - unload hard to break AOA, full left aileron (or into the attacker if he's on the right. Why left - cuz it's easier damnit - fighter pilots always go left!!) then full left rudder while going idle or MIN AB on the left engine (centripetal force of the left engine spinning less helps to whip the nose down and left), then full back stick as approaching inverted and reef right back at the attacker. It'll save you for another 30-40 seconds - a total "cash in" to survive hoping that buddy will come along, and, oh, you need 3500 feet min above the ground or you're gonna smack the ground. Now you're committed to "floor jinks" as the attacker re-aligns and comes at you with his gun.
Kev, that was the situation you were in "at the floor" against the 109. Can't go up ("Go up - blow up") cause you don't have the power to climb and stay out of a gun WEZ. So all you can do is try to create as much of an angles and closure problem for the attacker as possible while trying not to smack mother Earth as well (PK of 100% there). Execution - turn into the attack as much as possible to so attacker's rounds pass behind you while throttling back as much as feasibly possible. As he continues to " pull on", unload, roll with rudder and enough aileron the other way (without smacking ground), and pull into him as much as possible again. He has to unload and roll across as well to pull enough lead to shoot in the new tracking solution - before he gets to enuf lead but is committed in his pull, do the same thing back the other way (usually just before he's pure as you're looking at him over your shoulder - he can't shoot when pure cause he ain't in lead yet). What is happening is, at a slower speed, you are flying a series of Ss that are wider than his in a god's eye view. To have the control authority to correct and keep pulling lead - he has to have more speed/power in to do so - he's closing like a big dog with a series of Ss that is far thinner behind you - closure again. If you can survive two of these iterations from 1,800 feet in, he'll pass by you as you wave at him after reversing one final time. If he's smart, he'll transfer that closure (energy) into the vertical and go up to stay out of your gun WEZ, but if he "becomes a passenger" while startled for just a second, your 8 Brownings will send him to Valhalla, "I'm hitting 'im! He's had his wakeup call!!" Hunter becomes the hunted. It's a desperation move but really there's no other option but to hanker behind the armor plate (the Robert Johnson defense! God love Republic products - I sure as hell appreciated the Hog's "titanium bathtub" when the 23 and 37mm started flying!), and that's not very pro-active. Damn, I do miss it sometimes. And teaching it is great fun when a student's "lightbulb" comes on. Go forth and conquer my young Jedi in the cyberspace world!! 
__________________
|
| | 602RAF_Puff
Crewdog
Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 381
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #4 |
Nice idea Pete, if Mike is up for it, I love discussing the ins and outs of fighter combat...will have to dig the book out again lol!! |
| | MaGooF15
Crewdog
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 393
| | 602RAF_Puff
Crewdog
Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 381
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #6 |
Nice bag Mike, you'll love the new stuff coming for 2.10, new FM's for all the aircraft { they now seem heavier and 'feel' right }, new ground textures along with trees and houses, aerodromes filled with activity and hopefully some 3d gauges etc... new reworked multiskin and possibly some new skins for the LW bombers!!
Just as a recap, I posted this in the other thread if you would like to comment then I'm all ears!
Quote: Thanks Mike, this was very appreciated, love threads like this, although they do tend to give me 'brain drain' trying to visualize whats going on in 3D in my head. I guess what you were talking about while I was flying the hurri was a scissors, all well and good if the E fighter decides to play the game but what to do if he doesn't, you end up being on the defensive for the match and slowly losing speed, I have tried to climb very slowly while I break turn to try and gain a little Alt, hoping to convert to E when needed, but other than that is there anything you could point out to assist in a scissors when the EA doesn't play lol
I was watching the track of my Df last night, my biggest problem is flying outside the envelope, I tend to flip the aircraft over in a high speed stall by overuse of the rudder , mainly side slipping into the turn, usually just as the EA is trying to track for a shot, then its on the defensive for me and a lot of hard work.
On another note, this kind of discussion really helps when trying to get a good composition for aircraft in combat, instead of just grabbing something that you think looks right, maybe Mike could pass and expert eye over it and comment on the possibility of that maneuver working or not?
|
| | MaGooF15
Crewdog
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 393
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #7 |
Kev,
Wasn't sure what you meant regarding the enemy fighter "not wanting to play" when you're in a scissors? The "level floor jinks" do look like a lateral scissors from above, no doubt, but if you're powered back as much as possible, there's simply no way he won't close on you if he's continually pulling lead each time you reverse (you really have to pull across firmly and "set the pull", just quickly rolling left and right will do next to nothing - he'll just take potshots at you as you essentially stay in the same piece of sky). I did this in the one on one IA mission twice in a Hurri and, though I took a few rounds as I crossed his nose on his first pass on the first atttempt, I succeeded in overshooting him both times and eventually shot him down - it works 9at least aginst the AI). So i'm not sure about your "not playing". If you mean he just transfers his energy into the vertical and goes up to keep from losing 3/9 when he senses the heavy closure - that IS a time I'd go up as well to take away the vertical turning room he's trying to get back (otherwise, because of his energy/speed advantage, as you track away down low, he'll build lateral and vertical turning room/separation as he's killed forward movement by pitching up into the vertical. Once his closure is under control, he just drops the nose and slides down inside your turn again. If you go up with him, you want to get as much AOA as possible on the airplane short of stalling (that solves all his problems). This is called being in a "tree" (you may call it a scissors as well, but it's a bit more involved). Essentially, as the defender slightly out in front and a bit lower - you're trying to max perform your bird in a slight climb at full power just short of stall speed and try and work back underneath him. HE is trying to use rudder to weave back and forth behind you and get you "out of sync" to build lateral (and as much vertical) separation as possible so he can comfortably go IDLE and point his nose down at you for a squirt. As well, if you're beneath him - he has a hard time seeing you, so he has to roll a bit to look down to see you - that means loss of lift and "coming down" towards your level. Not a bad thing for you because he can't shoot you and you'll probably be able to work to a neutralish "single circle" position where you're looking across at him from 500 feet away (better for you than it had been), OR, being able to work back behind him but lower (he cracks the wings to the horizon and does everything to stay above you (and your machine guns). If you can, it's possible to dip the nose in a small lo yoyo to "get some smash back" to maybe go up at him. But more likely, he'll try and "work you out of sync" and try and separate by pirouetting down at you and maybe taking a low PK squirt as he unloads to try and separate (better chance in a 109, probably les so in a Brit fighter), as a minimum, it allows him to build speed and come back at you in a vertical fight again. "Trees" are very complicated depending on the essentially 6 positions they can start from (directly beneath, directly above, slightly ahead and low, slightly high and behind, slightly behind and low, slightly ahead and high), and would need multiple pages devoted to sort out. They're more likely in modern fighters with high thrust to weight ratios, but I've been in the beginnings of one in BoB before somebody tumbles off or just rolls away due to stalling (then you have him of course).
Regarding climbing to grab some Energy - i'll almost always do that if the bandit allows it (across the circle in a neutral 2 circle fight as an example), as it can always be transferred into a dive or a nose "pull on" to threaten someone later. Climbing at the floor in a scissors/floor jinks may not be the best option intitially as you're already slow and it may make your turn more sluggish - plus you're presenting more target area to the bad guy. However - if you sense a high closure rate as he's coming and he doesn't blast you with his first burst as you break hard and you notice him pitching up - ALWAYS, if possible pull up a bit into him to take away that turning room he's trying to preserve/grab. Then the "tree" discussion applies. If possible, when weaving in a tree as the offender trying to get the bad guy out of sync so you can roll back onto his tail, try and do it only with rudder - when you roll and crack a wing to look down at him, you lose lift and are sliding down to his level (that's what he wants - you in the phonebooth so you can't shoot). However, if you don't look at all, he may sense it and decide to roll on his back and leave if he's got enuf vertical space to do it - then you have no one to play with!).
|
| | 602RAF_Puff
Crewdog
Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 381
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #8 |
Fantastic Mike trying to 3d image this in my head as I type  , the E4 was flown by one of my Sqn mates, he is VERY good with E management and works just as you posted, he climbs hard after the pass and rolls over , judging when and where to make his next slash attack. I never follow him up, thats just what he wants out of me, hanging on my prop and wollowing around. I try and keep my vector pointed at him and climb very slowly towards him, trying to cut down seperation on the next pass and eating into his energy advantage...the big problem is getting hit on one of the passes, even a little squirt, and those 20's knock seven shades of crap outta you. I also try and judge when he is about to fire and nose down slightly to spoil the aim...rinse and reapeat for me till he either makes a mistake, I make a mistake, or the advantage is back to neutral. just as an afterthought..Mike...could you be so kind as to post a glossary of terms used by yourself in these posts { if you have the time } I think it would allow others to follow the thread and tactics etc a little better.
|
| | MaGooF15
Crewdog
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 393
|
|
|
Reply with quote | #9 |
Kev,
Instead of putting the nose down, try and "get skinny" by rolling 90 degrees (wing at the attacker ) and pulling a bit out of plane to ruin his aim (obviously down retains/gains a bit of energy if you have the vertical space to do it), then quickly roll back and pull into him if the shot is missed. If he passes within 1,000 ft back with 60-70 degrees of angle off and hi line of sight rate - REVERSE! You'll be in rolling scissors in no time - then pull for his hi 6 without stalling - the better maneuverability of the Hurri should win out there. If he goes up where you can't go, go down hard and turn it into a vertical egg fight. when you come back up, lead turn him in the vertical and pull down hard behind him (just like the "snapshot" that is my current Hornet - fulcrum pix). Now you've got the wiley bugger. I'll do a glossary of sort s when back from the beach next week.
Cheers, Mike
|
| |
|
Had a particularly good day defending the realm yesterday - bagged 4 110s on Adlertag, then followed up with 3 109s in a re-doing of the "Honor tournament" that was done a few months back on another BoB site, course while squirting the second one, a German wingie winged me a bit - was able to bag a skulker with lousy visual lookout discipline as I diverted with a smoking engine into Manston. However on the 3rd mission, I got a bit overzealous in my Hurri and inadvertantly rammed a Heinkel in a 30 plane formation I'd been firing at - RIP after 3 missions and 8 kills
